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There’s things which are mathematical abstractions, like agency or information and there’s things that are physical abstractions like ‘water bottle’ or ‘sunglasses’. And there’s the zone of things, how to play billiards which are just not actually good abstractions. Daniel Filan: So there’s this whole range of how well things fit into abstraction. Daniel Filan: Yeah. So speaking of modularity, I understand a lot of your work is interested in this idea of abstraction. Daniel Filan: Yeah. Well, I don’t. John Wentworth: I don’t think it’s actually in a border zone. And it seems like agency’s in this border zone, what’s up with that? I don’t know. Maybe it’s not strange, but, naively, it seems strange that there’s some spectrum from things where you can easily understand the abstraction, like pressure, to things where abstraction fits, but just close to our border of understanding what an abstraction is. Abstraction is mostly about the structure of the world, whereas the kinds of modularity I’m talking about in the context of selection theorems is mostly about the internal structure of these systems under selection pressure.

There’s no physically fundamental barrier that’s the Cartesian boundary in the physical world, right? An agent is an abstraction, and that Cartesian boundary is essentially an abstraction boundary. There’s the Cartesian boundary, is the key thing here, the boundary between the inside of the agent and the outside of the agent. On a coin-operated table, the object balls are deposited inside an inaccessible window until the table is paid again, allowing the balls to be released into the compartment, while the cue ball is usually separated into its own ball return, often utilizing a different sized ball. I don’t know, I guess in the study of - sometimes in philosophy, people talk about the composite object that’s this particular random bit of Jupiter and this particular random bit of Mars and this particular random bit of your hat - not a good abstraction. John Wentworth: So one particular way to imagine this is maybe you’re just XORing those first hundred bits to get bit one, right?

I certainly expect that routing through at least some understanding of abstraction first will get us there much faster. Setting up a popular sports bar, where the individuals that are attracted will come in both for the chance to find partners but also for the chance to get to experience the games is a way in which more "punch" can be had from the spaces. Study the game but don't get ahead of your self. John Wentworth: So there’s a general challenge here in communicating why it’s important, which is you have to go a few layers down the game tree before you run into it. Daniel Filan: Cool. So before we get into what’s going on with abstraction, first I’d like to ask, why should we care about abstraction? Those we can operationalize very cleanly without having to get into how abstraction works. If we want to get into politics. We want to go faster than that. So if you’re thinking about learning human values, having a good formulation of what abstractions are is going to massively exponentially narrow down the space of things you might be looking for. So the things humans care about are abstractions.

Do you think there’s just a large zone of things that are squarely within the actual concept of abstraction, but our understanding of abstraction is something a low dimensional manifold, like a line on a piece of paper where the line takes up way less area than the paper? John Wentworth: In part I expect this because I’ve now spent a while understanding abstraction better and I’m already seeing the returns on understanding agency better. Daniel Filan: Yeah. It seems like you might also hope for some kind of connection, where if the real world supports some kind of good abstractions, you might hope that I organize my cognition in a modular way where I’ve got one module per abstraction or something like that. It’s like the conceptual boundary through which this abstraction is interacting with the rest of the world. It’s very much about interacting more with some chunk of stuff and not very much with the stuff elsewhere, right? Back to the girls, Girls can smile, can play with him, but more as a reaction to his actions, because if you show you're too wild or you flirt twice as he does, you might intimidate the man.